February 9, 2005
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Topic: conversations with a libertarian
I’ve been having a great dialogue Craig, it’s too long to post here, but you can read through most of it through the link. Several themes are starting to arise regarding domestic politics…taxes, charity, gov’t spending, social programs, hard work vs. laziness, market outcomes, regulations…What’s interesting is that most points have 3 componants, history, economics, and sociology.
…but now I’m looking for more concrete examples for those points.
One issue is regulation. I personally believe that there are many safety regulations that we take for granted, without which, we may not be as safe today. The right believes regulations are bad economically…we can argue that. But…right now economic arguments aren’t as convincing to me, since both sides can grab different numbers and spin them differently, but the social arguments attached to them interest me. The social argument of the right against regulations is that people have enough common sense to not need regulations, and if they don’t, well…that’s their fault. It’s my belief that, like social programs, we take for granted what good gov’t regulations do for us. So…please share some regulations you know of that keep us safe almost everyday, without which, even bright people like ourselves, could still be harmed by.
Another interesting thought. The right has managed to hijack patriotism from the left, regarding foreign policy at least. The right (here i mean conservatives, not libertarians) praises all US military action, while the left is most often anti-war. Domestically, things play out differently. Here, it’s the left who are the patriots, who believe the US gov’t is a force for good, while it’s the right who is vehemently anti-government. The right will say things like, “government isn’t the solution to problems, it’s the source of the problems.” Kind of ironic, don’t you think?
Comments (12)
I think you made some great points with craig. I’ll actually look forward to his response. See, those raised “middle class or better” in America have as little understanding of life on the bottom as Marie Antoinette did. They look around and see that life is really pretty easy, that mistakes can be made to go away, that there are always people you know to bail you out. That schools are safe. That if you just “show up for work” you’ll be fine. The realities beneath that economic floor are entirely different, but those “two Americas” just don’t see each other, especially now that the Middle Class has so successfully separated itself from those below in their walled exurbias. Again, our current president is the poster boy for this. Had he engaged in the same behavior as a poor black teenager and twenty-something as he did as a rich white kid, at best he would have landed in jail, more likely he’d be dead. But wealth buys opportunity in America, work does not.
And in terms of the liberal/conservative split you talk about here: I’d argue that liberals are absolutely consistent. They see the solution to global issues in the same way they see the solutions to domestic issues: better distribution of resources and opportunities. I’d also argue that conservatives are consistent, they have the same “Abu Ghraib” attitude toward the world as they have toward domestic problems (the “Rodney King – we’ll pay for cops to kick the shit out them but nothing else” theory).
So generally, the left suggests re-distribution as the solution, the right argues that sufficiently applied violence will protect “our” (their) interests. That they claim that is “patriotic” is simply a propaganda coup.
I hadn’t noticed that before but you are right, it is ironic.
I will write back soon, I am very busy, though I am sure my procrastination will get the best of me.
Actually, the Candian federal gov’t does have a lower corporate tax rate than the US. Much lower in fact, 22% to our 33%. How do they do this and still maintain their welfare state? Now this may come as a shock to you, but there actually other taxes in Canada. Amazing concept, huh? One would think that someone who boasts about the worker’s paradise of Canada as much as you do would now some basic facts about them.
With regards to GM’s financials, I notice you only look at their income tax. Surely you know that there are two other major forms of corporate tax, namely property tax and sales tax. In most Southern states, most of the corporate tax collected is in the form of property tax.
Again, either you’re deliberately dissembling, or you haven’t the slightest idea what you are talking about. Probably a good portion of both.
Yeah, they don’t tax the corporations, because they want to move american companies over there, they just royally screw the middle class with payroll taxes that would make any American’s head spin.
You guys are laughable. I show you the fact that they paid 7% in US Income Tax and 154% in Foreign Income taxes and you claim our rate is higher than that in other countries. Effective tax rates are the only rates that matter boys. Everything else said about taxes is just designed to fool people like you, or so that people like you can lie to others.
But evencraig’s “screw the middle class” statement is so wonderfully laughable. Let’s ask the middle class honestly: Pay 15% more in taxes AND never pay a medical bill again, never worry about health insurance again, get maybe half the cost of your health insurance returned to you as income, pay 1/4 to send your children to college (Canada) or nothing (Germany), live in a far, far safer society.
General Motors pretty much announced Friday that if something drastic doesn’t happen with health insurance in the US, American auto manufacturing may simply disappear. But I guess they know as little about the issue as I do.
“Pay 15% more in taxes AND never pay a medical bill again, never worry about health insurance again, get maybe half the cost of your health insurance returned to you as income, pay 1/4 to send your children to college (Canada) or nothing (Germany), live in a far, far safer society.”
Yeah, and thanks to those taxes, the average middle class family in canada also makes 10 grand less than us. Furthermore, if our government did not waste the amount of money it does on its military, we would have even more money, but also the freedom to spend it.
American Corporate income tax is 31.91 % and Canada as of 2003 is 23%. You keep citing “foreign income taxes,” but GM, as in your example, sells most of its cars in America and is likely to pay the majority of its taxes as American income, because they sold the car in America. we have no tariffs with canada, so we could not tax that way either.
furthermore, i would like to see where you get 154% taxation from…who would sell a product with a -54% return? That’s ridiculous, you have to be citing statistics incorrectly.
with that extra 10 to 15% in taxes a canadian pays I can save for my own retirement and pay for my own healthcare, which for most americans is part of their income and americans on general make at least 10 grand more on average than canadians. Furthermore, I doubt it is the economic system in place that make Canada safer than the US, it is more social than economic. If it was purely economic, then why do poor latinos and poor asians cause less crime than poor blacks? There are underlyinging social problems that by far trump those that are economic.
“Everything else said about taxes is just designed to fool people like you, or so that people like you can lie to others.”
Ah yes, thenarrator has called upon the famously effective “who are you going to believe, me, or your lyin’ eyes?” line of argument. I think the sheer anti-intellectualism of his latest argument speaks for itself. craigramblings did a good job addressing the details, but I’d just like to point out, once again, thenarrator has refused to take into account corporate taxes other that income taxes. Funny, I thought I pointed out this mistake last time. Think he’s blind, or just slow?
There are plenty of other taxes. But property taxes are notoriously low for most major US manufacturing plants, as they receive huge concessions on these. But thatliberalmedia is the blind one. GM paid 7% in US corporate income tax in 2003. You can make up ANY number you want my boy, but 7% is their tax rate. They say it. The IRS agrees. They paid 2% to Michigan, astounding because Michigan has a 4.5% “flat tax” that applies to the very first dollar of income. craig didn’t explain any details at all. And here’s the type of detail he didn’t explain: Canadian corporate income tax rules allow about half the types of deductions US law allows, even US audit rules.
But what’s funny here is not craig, but you thatliberalmedia. You’re the one who has bashed Canada for their “high tax socialist economy.” So you jumping in here is just amusing.
“There are plenty of other taxes. But property taxes are notoriously low for most major US manufacturing plants, as they receive huge concessions on these. But thatliberalmedia is the blind one”
Am I supposed ot take your lying word for it? Show me the proof. Show me total corporate tax paid, not just the income tax portion.
“But what’s funny here is not craig, but you thatliberalmedia. You’re the one who has bashed Canada for their “high tax socialist economy.”"
Ah yes, my mistake. If one tax is low, it must be that all their taxes are low. They can’t have any other high taxes now. Your arguments are laughable on their face
dan: thought you might be interested in this.
Theliberalmedia asked for you to cite your statistics. Surely, I am too interested to see if deductions in both countries level out differently. So please, leads us to where you get that information so we can cross-check your analysis, such as your 154% statisitc.